Chechen Commander on Modern Separatism

Nezavisimoye Voyennoye Obozreniye
in Russian
No 2 22-28 Jan 99 p 2

Part Two

Interview with Brigadier General Zelimkhan Abdulmuslimovich Yandarbiyev, former president of Chechen Republic of Ichkeria, by Maksim Shevchenko in Staryye Atagi, date and occasion not specified, under rubric "Other Shores": "A War Like Any Other War: Zelimkhan Yandarbiyev on Why They Wanted To Kill General Romanov and Why They Executed Russian Mercenaries"

[NVO] To what extent did you control the actions of individual commanders and groups, such as in other areas of the Republic?

[Yandarbiyev] Rather stably, with the exception of those moments when they would receive assignments and were withdrawing.

[NVO] Were there heavy losses among the civilian population?

[Yandarbiyev] We estimate them at 100,000-120,000. Basically these are not Chechens. The main losses of the civilian population were in Groznyy, which is where the majority of Russians remained.

[NVO] By the way, what position did Russian residents of Chechnya take in this war?

[Yandarbiyev] Our local old people, such as from my village of Staryye Atagi, wanted to move some of the Russians out of the city when the commitment of troops began and they bombed the city. They came to me and proposed to take out the Russian elderly and women, and to make this appeal over television. Others later also made appeals with such initiatives.

Some went and some were afraid to go... Some... They say that in war it is as in any war... Some were awaiting the arrival of Russian troops like manna from heaven, and tried to offer them their services. There were cases of turning people in--"these are Dudayev people"--and so on. There were cases when people were even shot on being pointed out. There also were such people.

There were even cases where neighbors, who would visit each other before the war, informed and matters ended with an execution.

[NVO] Were there instances where local Russians fought on your side?

[Yandarbiyev] I saw two or three. There was a father and son. Later there was one other... I had a lad of 19 in my security--his mother was Russian and his father Chechen. He arrived from Russia right before the war and died in the presidential palace.

[NVO] Did it happen where soldiers would go over to your side and take up arms?

[Yandarbiyev] It happened. There also were defectors, although voluntariness in war can be taken in different ways. They didn't come to us from Moscow with an offer of help! In a combat situation they did come over, but there were few. It is another matter when prisoners became aware of the situation, and some simply helped and some patiently endured the fate that befell them without attempting to escape.

[NVO] Did you have mercenaries?

[Yandarbiyev] Not one mercenary! In the entire period of the Chechen state's existence there was not a single mercenary on the territory of Chechnya. [NVO] But there were Arabs...

[Yandarbiyev] There were Arabs, but there was a sum total of 50 volunteers. These were people who gave themselves to the Jihad.

[NVO] And Afghan Mujahidin?

[Yandarbiyev] Among Arabs who were here, there were those fighting who had taken part in the Afghan campaign. There also was a certain number of Caucasians...

[NVO] Mohajirs from the Near East?

[Yandarbiyev] No, local. We also considered Arabic Caucasians Arabs.

[NVO] And were there "white claws"?

[Yandarbiyev] This all is in the category of "rose-colored fantasies." There was not a single Lettish woman sniper here. There were two Baltic volunteers, one Lett and the other Lithuanian; the latter died. And an American with long hair; he was Muslim. There were Ukrainians, although also not as many as both Ukrainian and Russian propaganda said. An exaggeration of their exploits played into the hands of Ukrainian nationalists, but those few people who were here fought very well, in a real way. They were in the presidential palace and one died there.

[NVO] How long were you in the presidential palace?

[Yandarbiyev] We left there on the evening of 18 January.

[NVO] And all this time there were continuous assaults? How did they take the palace at all?

[Yandarbiyev] The Russian soldiers did not take the palace. It simply had been destroyed to the foundation, floors had been breached to the basement. We decided: Why accept a heroic death when it is possible to move to another place and continue resisting?

[NVO] Did you lay large minefields?

[Yandarbiyev] We did not have that physical capability. We only laid mines on movement routes and emplaced landmines. There was no mine warfare on the Chechen side, but there was on the Russian side--where troops were disposed they immediately laid mines and our people and cattle are being blown up to this day.

[NVO] Possibly this is a military secret and you will not say, but still... Was the attempt on General Romanov a planned operation or by chance?

[Yandarbiyev] It was a planned operation, and the idiocy that has existed for several years now around this name both on the Russian and on the Chechen side is incomprehensible to me. This person came to destroy people. Did he figure that he should be pitied? What negotiations can one speak about when Russian troops were on the territory of the Chechen state, in occupied Groznyy? Whether it would have been Yeltsin there or any other Russian politicians--all of them had to be blown to bits at that time!

And Maskhadov's idiocy, when he begins to say this was a peacemaker, is incomprehensible to me. What peacemaker? A peacemaker should sit at home next to his wife and daughter. But he is a general who, according to our information, directed the destruction of Samashki under the pseudonym "Antonov."

[NVO] Did you leave the city in columns or groups? I remember it was constantly said that the city was surrounded on all sides and only one exit was left in order to lure the fighters into a trap.

[Yandarbiyev] When we left the presidential palace, for example, I got in a vehicle and drove home to Staryye Atagi. It was on the night of 19 January, and I left on the following day. I don't know what the Russian troops surrounded the city with, but this was an absolute bluff.

When I rode back to the city, pedestrians and vehicles were going around there and our militia was walking around. I left the headquarters in Groznyy once and for all on 2 February. We had a Congress of the Chechen People set for the 7th. And I arrived on the 2nd and met a Russian column that had penetrated from the direction of Prigorodnyy Rayon. They fired on the vehicle. I turned and crossed a ridge into the headquarters, which was in the 2nd City Hospital.

Of course, there was bombing and firing. After the 2nd I left the city across the fields.

[NVO] Were the blockposts effective? Could they have taken you prisoner?

[Yandarbiyev] There were moments. But we rode past the blockposts when necessary. Once, already as president, I ended up in encirclement with five security guards, and there were soldiers 3-5 meters from me. We had only two machineguns--one light and the other heavy--and four assault rifles and grenades. The place where I was located was surrounded by three tanks.

[NVO] And where was this?

[Yandarbiyev] It was in Roshni-Chu. Russian troops suddenly surrounded the village and the fighters, who did not know I was there, left. [NVO] How do you explain the fact that during the war you took not only military personnel prisoner, but also Volgograd builders, for example?

[Yandarbiyev] What kind of builder can there be on occupied territory?.. I personally spoke on television and said we would consider any person who came to us on occupied territory as a builder and so on to be a colonizer developing territory won from us. I believed they were worse than soldiers, inasmuch as soldiers know that all the same they are to leave, but these can count on remaining and developing this land.

[NVO] How was the war financed on your side?

[Yandarbiyev] Self-support--everything the people had was given for the war.

[NVO] How did you look on the Chechen militia?

[Yandarbiyev] There were people under our control there as well. There also were some, although few, in the Zavgayev militia. But on the whole, we saw them as traitors.

[NVO] Was there some kind of special policy toward journalists?

[Yandarbiyev] Yes, we admitted them everywhere. We had no problem keeping a state secret. We perceived journalists as sympathizers, because we believed they stood closer than many to the progressive layers of society. It was advantageous for us to show everything as it was. The Russian commanders began by running down and defaming journalists, and this very thing set the journalists against them. It was a very simple game on our side.

[NVO] How do you assess the raids in Budennovsk and Kizlyar?

[Yandarbiyev] These were military operations.

[NVO] But much of the civilian population suffered in them, maternity hospitals were seized and the population was taken hostage...

[Yandarbiyev] Basayev did not seize a maternity hospital. There was a hospital where they ended up by chance because they sent their wounded there. Later, when they began withdrawing there under the onslaught of Russian subunits in order to pick up their wounded, they were locked in there. Later they began to take control of the hospital--the people themselves said they did not terrorize anyone there.

[NVO] But they shot officers?

[Yandarbiyev] This is another matter! They also shot pilots. This is normal. They bombed cities, villages and people. This is their profession--to die when necessary. But civilians in particular--that did not happen. Civilians died when Russian units went into the assault.

But why was it necessary to assault? This is idiocy. And after Kizlyar, they blocked and halted them at Pervomayskoye. And where are people to take up a defense? Not on the road? This is war. It is normal that they withdrew to the village and took up a defense there where it was convenient for them. This all has to end up on the account of the Russian leadership's responsibility for this war. It indicates their attitude toward people.

[NVO] Did the people from Russia's supreme leadership try to get in touch with you during the war?

[Yandarbiyev] Various people representing parties came, seemingly on their own behalf, but one sensed that someone was standing behind them. But we had one condition--total withdrawal of troops. We did not even have to concoct anything--we just asked to be left alone.

[Nezavisimoye Voyennoye Obozreniye: Weekly independent military newspaper published by the Boris Berezovskiy-financed Nezavisimaya Gazeta]

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