IS CONTRACEPTION ALSO ABORTION?

Conversation:

MadhudviSa: SrIla PrabhupAda, is there a jIva, is there a spirit soul in every sperm cell, or does that...? Does the spirit soul only come to a particular sperm cell, or is there one in every sperm cell, and the condition isn't right, so then it dies before, I mean, it leaves before it actually forms a body?
PrabhupAda: Yes. The sperm, generally in every sperm there is spirit soul. But sometimes we put checks. The contraceptive method means putting check. Just like you pollute the milk. Then it loses his strength. So similarly, there are other circumstances which checks the sperm to inject soul.

Lectures:

Then where is the difference between KRSNa and us? Yes, there is difference. What is that? That KRSNa, singular number, nityo nityAnAm...nityAnAm, this is plural number. Cetanaz cetanAnAm. CetanAnAm, this is plural number. So there is one person, singular number. Others, they are plural number, we jIvas. AnantyAya kalpate. JIvas, that is described, the dimension of the jIva. I have several times explained, kezAgra-zata-bhAgasya zatadhA kalpitasya ca [Cc. Madhya 19.140]. First of all, divide the tip of the hair into hundred parts. Then take one of the parts, one hundredth part, again divide into hundred parts. That small, less than atom, that is the magnitude of the jIva. And they are anantyAya kalpate. There is no limit. There is no limit how many living entities are there. If you search out, after passing stool, if you search out stool, you'll find millions of living entities, germs. Even from the hole of your room, there is small hole, and there are ants, hundreds and thousands will come out. So similarly, within the hole, within the earth, within the air, within the fire even, there are germs, worms in the fire. These rascals, they do not know. They simply think... Because nitya, nitya means ever-existing. So in the fire the living entities does not die. They sterilize. "Now it is sterilized." That is all nonsense. Sterilized means the body is killed, but not this... There is abortion. The body is killed. Contraception... The body is killed. But the soul, he's not killed. If you make some inconvenience to the soul, who has taken shelter in the womb, and you kill the body, then he'll have to search out another body. This is going on. Just see how the rascal civilization is going on. They're thinking they're killing. This way killed, that way killed. No. You, it is sinful because you create inconvenience to that particular soul. He was taking shelter, karmaNA daiva-netreNa jantur dehopapattaye [SB 3.31.1]. By his karma he was given shelter to develop a body, and if you kill that body, that means you go against the order of the Supreme. Daiva-netreNa, suppose you are destined to occupy some room, and somebody does not allow you to enter that room, is it not criminal? It is criminal, unlawful detention, unlawful... It is unlawful, even in the state. Similarly, a living entity is developing one body, and if you kill that, you become immediately criminal, punishable. And the living entity who is checked to develop the body, he's put into inconvenience, he's also sinful. He's also sinful. Therefore it may be simply he's wandering from one womb to another, one womb to another. Because he committed that sinful activity abortion. Now the man who causes his abortion, he also being punished, that "You'll never see the light of this world. You'll simply have to live one womb to another, one womb to another. Go on." So nature's punishment is like that. But these foolish people they do not know.
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KRSNa says the sufferings of birth: they do not understand, such fools, that what is the suffering of birth. Even if you are not killed, you have to remain compact in a vat, airtight. And the worms, they are biting. So many things. Suffocated. That is one thing. But if he can live at least for ten months, the mother does not kill, abortion, then it has got a chance to come out. Otherwise, there is no chance to come out ever. He dies within the womb, again transferred to another womb, and again it is killed. So those who are too much sinful, those who are causing these abortions, they will get this sort of life. They will never see light. One womb, killed; another womb, killed; another womb, killed; another womb, killed. This is so sinful, this abortion. And the modern civilization and the priestly order, they are passing: "If the mother selects... otherwise, there is no objection, abortion." Such foolish world is going on. You see? There are so many subtle laws of nature.

Srimad Bhagavatam 3.31.1-48:

The Personality of Godhead said: Under the supervision of the Supreme Lord and according to the result of his work, the living entity, the soul, is made to enter into the womb of a woman through the particle of male semen to assume a particular type of body.

On the first night, the sperm and ovum mix, and on the fifth night the mixture ferments into a bubble. On the tenth night it develops into a form like a plum, and after that, it gradually turns into a lump of flesh or an egg, as the case may be.

In the course of a month, a head is formed, and at the end of two months the hands, feet and other limbs take shape. By the end of three months, the nails, fingers, toes, body hair, bones and skin appear, as do the organ of generation and the other apertures in the body, namely the eyes, nostrils, ears, mouth and anus.

Within four months from the date of conception, the seven essential ingredients of the body, namely chyle, blood, flesh, fat, bone, marrow and semen, come into existence. At the end of five months, hunger and thirst make themselves felt, and at the end of six months, the fetus, enclosed by the amnion, begins to move on the right side of the abdomen.

Deriving its nutrition from the food and drink taken by the mother, the fetus grows and remains in that abominable residence of stools and urine, which is the breeding place of all kinds of worms.

Bitten again and again all over the body by the hungry worms in the abdomen itself, the child suffers terrible agony because of his tenderness. He thus becomes unconscious moment after moment because of the terrible condition.

Owing to the mother's eating bitter, pungent foodstuffs, or food which is too salty or too sour, the body of the child incessantly suffers pains which are almost intolerable.

Placed within the amnion and covered outside by the intestines, the child remains lying on one side of the abdomen, his head turned towards his belly and his back and neck arched like a bow.

The child thus remains just like a bird in a cage, without freedom of movement. At that time, if the child is fortunate, he can remember all the troubles of his past one hundred births, and he grieves wretchedly. What is the possibility of peace of mind in that condition?

Thus endowed with the development of consciousness from the seventh month after his conception, the child is tossed downward by the airs that press the embryo during the weeks preceding delivery. Like the worms born of the same filthy abdominal cavity, he cannot remain in one place.

The living entity in this frightful condition of life, bound by seven layers of material ingredients, prays with folded hands, appealing to the Lord, who has put him in that condition.

The human soul says: I take shelter of the lotus feet of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, who appears in His various eternal forms and walks on the surface of the world. I take shelter of Him only, because He can give me relief from all fear and from Him I have received this condition of life, which is just befitting my impious activities.

I, the pure soul, appearing now bound by my activities, am lying in the womb of my mother by the arrangement of mAyA. I offer my respectful obeisances unto Him who is also here with me but who is unaffected and changeless. He is unlimited, but He is perceived in the repentant heart. To Him I offer my respectful obeisances.

I am separated from the Supreme Lord because of my being in this material body, which is made of five elements, and therefore my qualities and senses are being misused, although I am essentially spiritual. Because the Supreme Personality of Godhead is transcendental to material nature and the living entities, because He is devoid of such a material body, and because He is always glorious in His spiritual qualities, I offer my obeisances unto Him.

The human soul further prays: The living entity is put under the influence of material nature and continues a hard struggle for existence on the path of repeated birth and death. This conditional life is due to his forgetfulness of his relationship with the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Therefore, without the Lord's mercy, how can he again engage in the transcendental loving service of the Lord?

No one other than the Supreme Personality of Godhead, as the localized ParamAtmA, the partial representation of the Lord, is directing all inanimate and animate objects. He is present in the three phases of time--past, present and future. Therefore, the conditioned soul is engaged in different activities by His direction, and in order to get free from the threefold miseries of this conditional life, we have to surrender unto Him only.

Fallen into a pool of blood, stool and urine within the abdomen of his mother, his own body scorched by the mother's gastric fire, the embodied soul, anxious to get out, counts his months and prays, "O my Lord, when shall I, a wretched soul, be released from this confinement?"

PURPORT: The precarious condition of the living entity within the womb of his mother is described here. On one side of where the child is floating is the heat of gastric fire, and on the other side are urine, stool, blood and discharges. After seven months the child, who has regained his consciousness, feels the horrible condition of his existence and prays to the Lord. Counting the months until his release, he becomes greatly anxious to get out of the confinement. The so-called civilized man does not take account of this horrible condition of life, and sometimes, for the purpose of sense gratification, he tries to kill the child by methods of contraception or abortion. Unserious about the horrible condition in the womb, such persons continue in materialism, grossly misusing the chance of the human form of life.
The word kRpaNa-dhIH is significant in this verse. DhI means "intelligence," and kRpaNa means "miserly." Conditional life is for persons who are of miserly intelligence or who do not properly utilize their intelligence. In the human form of life the intelligence is developed, and one has to utilize that developed intelligence to get out of the cycle of birth and death. One who does not do so is a miser, just like a person who has immense wealth but does not utilize it, keeping it simply to see. A person who does not actually utilize his human intelligence to get out of the clutches of mAyA, the cycle of birth and death, is accepted as miserly. The exact opposite of miserly is udAra, "very magnanimous." A brAhmaNa is called udAra because he utilizes his human intelligence for spiritual realization. He uses that intelligence to preach KRSNa consciousness for the benefit of the public, and therefore he is magnanimous.

My dear Lord, by Your causeless mercy I am awakened to consciousness, although I am only ten months old. For this causeless mercy of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the friend of all fallen souls, there is no way to express my gratitude but to pray with folded hands.

The living entity in another type of body sees only by instinct; he knows only the agreeable and disagreeable sense perceptions of that particular body. But I have a body in which I can control my senses and can understand my destination; therefore, I offer my respectful obeisances to the Supreme Personality of Godhead, by whom I have been blessed with this body and by whose grace I can see Him within and without.

Therefore, my Lord, although I am living in a terrible condition, I do not wish to depart from my mother's abdomen to fall again into the blind well of materialistic life. Your external energy, called deva-mAyA, at once captures the newly born child, and immediately false identification, which is the beginning of the cycle of continual birth and death, begins.

Therefore, without being agitated any more, I shall deliver myself from the darkness of nescience with the help of my friend, clear consciousness. Simply by keeping the lotus feet of Lord ViSNu in my mind, I shall be saved from entering into the wombs of many mothers for repeated birth and death.

Lord Kapila continued: The ten-month-old living entity has these desires even while in the womb. But while he thus extols the Lord, the wind that helps parturition propels him forth with his face turned downward so that he may be born.

Pushed downward all of a sudden by the wind, the child comes out with great trouble, head downward, breathless and deprived of memory due to severe agony.

The child thus falls on the ground, smeared with stool and blood, and plays just like a worm germinated from the stool. He loses his superior knowledge and cries under the spell of mAyA.

After coming out of the abdomen, the child is given to the care of persons who are unable to understand what he wants, and thus he is nursed by such persons. Unable to refuse whatever is given to him, he falls into undesirable circumstances.

Laid down on a foul bed infested with sweat and germs, the poor child is incapable of scratching his body to get relief from his itching sensation to say nothing of sitting up, standing or even moving.

In his helpless condition, gnats, mosquitoes, bugs and other germs bite the baby, whose skin is tender, just as smaller worms bite a big worm. The child, deprived of his wisdom, cries bitterly.

In this way, the child passes through his childhood, suffering different kinds of distress, and attains boyhood. In boyhood also he suffers pain over desires to get things he can never achieve. And thus, due to ignorance, he becomes angry and sorry.

With the growth of the body, the living entity, in order to vanquish his soul, increases his false prestige and anger and thereby creates enmity towards similarly lusty people.

By such ignorance the living entity accepts the material body, which is made of five elements, as himself. With this misunderstanding, he accepts nonpermanent things as his own and increases his ignorance in the darkest region.

For the sake of the body, which is a source of constant trouble to him and which follows him because he is bound by ties of ignorance and fruitive activities, he performs various actions which cause him to be subjected to repeated birth and death.

If, therefore, the living entity again associates with the path of unrighteousness, influenced by sensually minded people engaged in the pursuit of sexual enjoyment and the gratification of the palate, he again goes to hell as before.

He becomes devoid of truthfulness, cleanliness, mercy, gravity, spiritual intelligence, shyness, austerity, fame, forgiveness, control of the mind, control of the senses, fortune and all such opportunities.

One should not associate with a coarse fool who is bereft of the knowledge of self-realization and who is no more than a dancing dog in the hands of a woman.

The infatuation and bondage which accrue to a man from attachment to any other object is not as complete as that resulting from attachment to a woman or to the fellowship of men who are fond of women.

At the sight of his own daughter, BrahmA was bewildered by her charms and shamelessly ran up to her in the form of a stag when she took the form of a hind.

Amongst all kinds of living entities begotten by BrahmA, namely men, demigods and animals, none but the sage NArAyaNa is immune to the attraction of mAyA in the form of woman.

Just try to understand the mighty strength of My mAyA in the shape of woman, who by the mere movement of her eyebrows can keep even the greatest conquerors of the world under her grip.

One who aspires to reach the culmination of yoga and has realized his self by rendering service unto Me should never associate with an attractive woman, for such a woman is declared in the scripture to be the gateway to hell for the advancing devotee.

The woman, created by the Lord, is the representation of mAyA, and one who associates with such mAyA by accepting services must certainly know that this is the way of death, just like a blind well covered with grass.

A living entity who, as a result of attachment to a woman in his previous life, has been endowed with the form of a woman, foolishly looks upon mAyA in the form of a man, her husband, as the bestower of wealth, progeny, house and other material assets.

A woman, therefore, should consider her husband, her house and her children to be the arrangement of the external energy of the Lord for her death, just as the sweet singing of the hunter is death for the deer.

Due to his particular type of body, the materialistic living entity wanders from one planet to another, following fruitive activities. In this way, he involves himself in fruitive activities and enjoys the result incessantly.

In this way the living entity gets a suitable body with a material mind and senses, according to his fruitive activities. When the reaction of his particular activity comes to an end, that end is called death, and when a particular type of reaction begins, that beginning is called birth.

When the eyes lose their power to see color or form due to morbid affliction of the optic nerve, the sense of sight becomes deadened. The living entity, who is the seer of both the eyes and the sight, loses his power of vision. In the same way, when the physical body, the place where perception of objects occurs, is rendered incapable of perceiving, that is known as death. When one begins to view the physical body as one's very self, that is called birth.

Therefore, one should not view death with horror, nor have recourse to defining the body as soul, nor give way to exaggeration in enjoying the bodily necessities of life. Realizing the true nature of the living entity, one should move about in the world free from attachment and steadfast in purpose.

Endowed with right vision and strengthened by devotional service and a pessimistic attitude towards material identity, one should relegate his body to this illusory world through his reason. Thus one can be unconcerned with this material world.

SB 5.14.9:

Sometimes, as if blinded by the dust of a whirlwind, the conditioned soul sees the beauty of the opposite sex, which is called pramadA. Being thus bewildered, he is raised upon the lap of a woman, and at that time his good senses are overcome by the force of passion. He thus becomes almost blind with lusty desire and disobeys the rules and regulations governing sex life. He does not know that his disobedience is witnessed by different demigods, and he enjoys illicit sex in the dead of night, not seeing the future punishment awaiting him.

PURPORT
In Bhagavad-gItA (7.11) it is said: dharmAviruddho bhUteSu kAmo 'smi bharatarSabha. Sex is allowed only for the begetting of children, not for enjoyment. One can indulge in sex to beget a good child for the benefit of the family, society and world. Otherwise, sex is against the rules and regulations of religious life. A materialistic person does not believe that everything is managed in nature, and he does not know that if one does something wrong, he is witnessed by different demigods. A person enjoys illicit sex, and due to his blind, lusty desire, he thinks that no one can see him, but this illicit sex is thoroughly observed by the agents of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Therefore the person is punished in so many ways, presently in Kali-yuga there are many pregnancies due to illicit sex, and sometimes abortions ensue. These sinful activities are witnessed by the agents of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and a man and woman who create such a situation are punished in the future by the stringent laws of material nature (daivI hy eSA guNa-mayI mama mAyA duratyayA [Bg. 7.14]). Illicit sex is never excused, and those who indulge in it are punished life after life. As confirmed in Bhagavad-gItA (16.20):

AsurIM yonim ApannA
mUDhA janmani janmani
mAm aprApyaiva kaunteya
tato yAnty adhamAM gatim

"Attaining repeated birth among the species of demoniac life, such persons can never approach Me. Gradually they sink down to the most abominable type of existence."

The Supreme Personality of Godhead does not allow anyone to act against the stringent laws of material nature; therefore illicit sex is punished life after life. Illicit sex creates pregnancies, and these unwanted pregnancies lead to abortion. Those involved become implicated in these sins, so much so that they are punished in the same way the next life. Thus in the next life they also enter the womb of a mother and are killed in the same way. All these things can be avoided by remaining on the transcendental platform of KRSNa consciousness. In this way one does not commit sinful activity. Illicit sex is the most prominent sin due to lusty desire. When one associates with the mode of passion, he is implicated in suffering life after life.

SB 6.16.14:

Queen KRtyadyuti's co-wives, who had poisoned the child, were very much ashamed, and they lost all their bodily luster. While lamenting, O King, they remembered the instructions of AGgirA and gave up their ambition to bear children. Following the directions of the brAhmaNas, they went to the bank of the YamunA, where they bathed and atoned for their sinful activities.

PURPORT
In this verse the word bAla-hatyA-hata-prabhAH is to be particularly noted. The practice of killing children has existed in human society for a long time--since time immemorial--but in the days of yore it was very rarely performed. At the present moment, however, in this age of Kali, abortion--killing of the child within the womb--has become very common, and sometimes a child is even killed after birth. If a woman performs such an abominable act, she gradually loses all her bodily luster (bAla-hatyA-hata-prabhAH). It is also to be noted that the ladies who had committed the sinful act of administering poison to the child were very much ashamed, and according to the directions of the brAhmaNas, they had to undergo atonement for killing the child. Any woman who has ever performed such an infamously sinful act must atone for it, but no one now is doing that. Under the circumstances, the women responsible must suffer in this life and the next. Those who are sincere souls, after hearing this incident, should refrain from such child-killing and should atone for their sinful activities by taking to KRSNa consciousness very seriously. If one chants the Hare KRSNa mahA-mantra without offenses, all of one's sinful actions are surely atoned for immediately, but one should not commit such deeds again, for that is an offense.

SB 11.2.2 Purport:

Nowadays some people, desiring material sense gratification but hoping to avoid the inconvenience of family life, try to enjoy "free" sexual relations with women, without the trouble of marriage. Through birth control and abortion they eliminate the disturbance of caring for children. In this way they hope to enjoy material sense gratification without any material impediment. By the laws of nature, however, such persons become bound in a network of sinful reactions by avoiding their real duty to the Supreme Personality of Godhead and by thoughtlessly causing violence and suffering to others for increasing their own sense gratification. Caught in a network of impious activities, they drift further and further away from their original pure consciousness and gradually lose all power to understand the laws of nature. Therefore it is stated here, sarvato-mRtyuH. MRtyu means "death." Death suddenly appears, startling such confident sense gratifiers, and destroys their entire program of so-called material happiness. Often such persons are afflicted with ghastly diseases and undergo inconceivable suffering, which ends in death. If a sincere well-wisher points these facts out to them, trying to inform them of the reality, they become angry and accuse him of being a pessimist or a religious fanatic. In this way they blindly ignore the laws of nature until these laws inevitably smash them down and drag them out of their fool's paradise. Because of an excessive accumulation of sinful results, they are forced into situations of great distress by the laws of karma. Sinking down into the lower species of life, they lose all awareness of that which lies beyond their gross material senses.

Your delinquent servant, darwin

Please let's step back from our emotions to become honest about this whole issue. It is too important to relegate it to tit for tat. It is the foundation of society or the destruction of society; which will we make it???

I for one, recently decided to stop pleading with my godbrothers about the whole man/woman eternal battle of the sexes. But here I go again!! I am begging, with straw between my teeth, let us get over it so we can talk constructively.

I for one have never personally felt sex was such a big all-consuming issue. I didn't find celibacy hard, nor did I ever put my self forward as a renunciate. In fact I REFUSED to be false and put on a white sari. For that I was labelled a women's libber by misogynistic men. For wanting to serve a man in marriage I was called a libber!!! I was not even a libber as a karmi. Sticks and stones.

Abortion IS a form of misogyny--hatred of women. There is NO getting around that, Darwin prabhu, and please forgive me, but I hope you will bear with me as I explain myself. And so is contraception of any kind. Women want babies. Even career women are thinking they will have babies later(most of them), but this unnatural state creates an atmosphere for the less pleasant qualities of women to grow. Society has begun a vast propoganda program to make women feel guilty and ashamed of this desire. And the reason is exactly like VdK has stated, refusal to take responsibility. The truth is that it is innate in women to WANT a pregnancy to occur from sex. Period. We want babies. That does not mean that many 'modern' women have not decided they want other things more, career, power etc. But inside, no matter how independent a woman appears, she still wants a baby(except in very rare persons, and even then they likely secretly want one). Of course, if a woman can stay in her intelligence, she will not want a baby in a situation where she couldn't take care of it, but that situation only exists due to the man she is with not taking responsibility. And it is still there underneath it all. It is our nature.

Our society DOES still hate women and children, in fact more than ever, and that IS the root cause of mass abortion. Women are joining in the hatred too, but that has been a gradual effect of conditioning over generations. Please look honestly at history.

Consider the age old idea that a young girl gets pregnant ON PURPOSE to TRAP a man!!! That girls father doesn't see it that way does he??? Not if he's a decent man he doesn't. If a young girl wants a baby, it is only natural, and the act of having sex often can't be separated from the desire to conceive for the woman. It can't for me. Never in my life did I have sex and not want the child to come with it. When I was young I wanted it so much I wished I could get raped, because I thought no man would ever marry me(ages 12-16). I had no idea what that would mean, just had a fantasy I would run away with my baby, as I knew society and my parents would condemn me for it. To desire a child through sex is not only natural to women, it is also 'vedic'(though I hate using that word for its abusive uses in iskcon). To think that a young girl or woman is using pregnancy to 'trap' a man is about as low as thinking can go, and it's called misogynism. And it IS a refusal to take responsiblity. When a man has sex with a woman, he OWES it to her to be prepared to accept fatherhood for the child she can't help but to hope will occur. If he is thinking like this, only then can he claim to be free, totally free, from misogynist anarthas. Misogynism faults a girl or woman for desiring conception. Yet to desire conception, is Krsna's arrangement for sex, at least for most women, if not all, if they are being honest with themselves.

I have used birth control in my life, including the pill for a matter of months.
And even while on the pill, the desire for conception did not decrease. I cannot have sex without that desire, and I believe that will even be true after it is physically impossible for me. I also believe that every woman feels this, at least to some degree, but as kali yuga progresses, that deeper feeling is being covered over more and more by selfishness. Where will this selfishness ever end??? It will certainly NOT end in the resolution of the fetus-cide issue, that's for sure. Abortion will only increase, and no amount of birth control will stop it; that is my firm belief.

Now if anyone wishes to misconstrue my words as hatred for men, they simply do not know me. And forget that fetus-hostage idea, Darwin prabhu, that is your emotive reaction. Please stop throwing that out as some kind of absolute for anyone who does not see it as you do. I do not believe anyone here is looking to hold fetuses hostages. And that's talking politics anyway. Or have I misunderstood the topic, and was it meant to be a political debate? If so, I don't belong here. I understood the idea of how we can stop abortion as an attempt at honest dialogue looking for real solutions. But if there is only one real solution perceived, we just end up back at the tit for tat door again; a waste of time. I do not condem or judge the use of non-violent birth control, but as I've already said, I also don't believe it is THE one and only answer, or even a very good solution over all. I think the selfishness is only increasing, and birth control is not helping that. Increased selfishness will only lead to more horrors. Do you not agree to that, at least?

GHari prabhu, I accept your statements of sex as a lower taste for a vaisnava, and certainly agree as I have clearly stated on the Tao thread. But I also see with your wording that it pushes MAJOR buttons for those of us who witnessed many years of out and out misogynism, hatred of women, which was based on the same type of terminology of giving sex the position of vileness. This vileness idea is corrupting on society at large, even among devotees. I am always appreciating your posts and your highly realised contributions of pure KC. But I suspect that perhaps you are naive as to the despicable behaviours in iskcon based on attributing vileness to sex. Literally, young mothers with babies have been villified by 'celibates' because they had to have sex to conceive the child. So we carry our babies, an advertisement to the artifically repressed, and they slam the doors in our faces. And I mean purposely, as a statement of the scarlet letter they believe we deserve. I am not saying all men, but too, too many. And way too many for a society which preaches protection of women, with a philosophy that includes seeing the children as the joy of society. Myself and my godsisters begged these kind of men, too, too many times, til most of us gave up. Which is what I did; some however felt compelled to sell out, but also in an attempt to stay in SP's movement. I am going to start a new thread on this topic, 'The use of 'hatred' of sex for abuse by misogynists', as this is a thread for stopping abortion, I won't go further into it here. Again, I do NOT think your words have abusive intent, but I totally understand how they feel to those of us who've been through the social destruction of our beloved spiritual master's movement first hand, at least in the external sense. We watched the misogyny grow like a cancer, out of control of sane persons, supported over and over by the vilification of sex and cosequently of women as existing only as mayadevis. This was never Srila Prabhupada's intention, yet his name is now being dragged through court because of it. The problem is that to vilify sex supports abusive persons, not that it creates abuse in and of itself, or that only abusive persons would speak so. I hope I am not offending you.

Finally, there are many wonderful devotee men; I hope none of you will take offense. Or be insulted for my stressing what I perceive as a MAJOR problem among devotees, as well as society at large. The society we are trying to effect by sharing the enlightenment we have been benedicted with.

You said that you are against nonviolent birth control to prevent abortion, because you think using nonviolent birth control isn't being "responsible"? Who is at risk in this bizarre social experiment? The unwanted fetus. That's what darwin calls holding fetuses hostage.

your projections upon others are tiring, childish and not promoting discussion.

It's got you talking.

Go back to your monkeys. Innuendo and slanderous remarks towards the doctor who does not like abortion,

darwin would much rather be a rude monkey who is speaking the truth, than a doctor who is so irresponsible that they against nonviolent birth control to prevent abortion.

but promotes responsibility does not amount to either promoting hate for women or men,

You promote bigotry by saying "What needs to be addressed is man's lack of responsibility", implying that "men" are to blame? If the monkey is wrong on this point, he is sorry.

does not hold any fetus in thrall but in your fertile filthy mind, which is only out to offend, at all cost, those who are genuinely interested in the subject.

You are the one who tried to change the subject by saying "Sex is ok, but I think using contraceptives is just an easy way out of responsibility, in the same or similar vein as abortion. It marks the refusal to deal with the results of our action. It is immature, hypocritical and cowardly. These are the real issues, of which abortion is but a symptom.". Abortion is not "but a symptom", it is the topic of this forum, and darwin and others are here to discuss how to prevent it. We are not here to promote being "responsible" by putting a fetus at risk.

You are a fault-finder, who seeks to put words and ideas in people's mouth without any of those words and ideas coming from the person accusaed, but from your own dirty mind.

You are against nonviolent birth control to prevent abortion?

Spare us your childish antics or go to some chatroom for puerile delinquents

Then come over to darwin's side and fight to prevent unwanted pregnancies and prevent abortion. You can help monkey darwin by arguing in a non puerile way.

Could you be more specific, or is that just something you heard someone else say, and thought sounded good?

Good luck finding happiness in this life, clymer.

darwin thinks BB is referring to Adam Clymer, the reporter that George Bush referred to as a "major league ***hole".

quote:

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Originally posted by darwin:

You don't want to prevent abortion, you just want to use the issue to stop sex and spread hatred of women. You are against nonviolent birth control to prevent abortion. You are against giving children a decent life. You want to stop sex and spread hatred of women by taking away their birth control and using fetuses as hostages. You and and all the other phony so-called anti abortionists are the main reason we have so many abortions in this country. It is so disgusting of you to post about how the fetus feels pain, and then be against nonviolent birth control to prevent abortion. The average abortion doctor cares more about preventing abortion than you do.

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And you are a delusional clymer if you really believe your fantasies and projections.

You are not in favor of using fetuses as hostages to prevent sex? You are in favor of using fetuses as hostages to promote "responsibility"? Do you tell your patients to not wear seat belts in their car, because that's "just an easy way out of responsibility"?

in the same or similar vein as abortion.

Nonviolent birth control is not at all similar to abortion. Nonviolent birth control prevents abortion.

It marks the refusal to deal with the results of our action.

Great! We now have a doctor who is against nonviolent birth control to prevent abortion? A doctor who wants to use fetuses a hostages to promote "responsibility"?

It is immature, hypocritical and cowardly. These are the real issues, of which abortion is but a symptom.

You admit you just want to use the abortion issue to promote "responsibility"? And hatred of men?

What needs to be addressed is man's lack of responsibility, not whether he is 'jealous'of someone who has sex or whether he produces 'hatred of women'.

Great! Our forum has attracted another bigot? Only this one hates men?

That is the stupidist argument I have so far seen here. As if devotees think sex is the devil and woman his agaent - what a joke!

You think all men are at fault?

So let us stick to the issue: how to stop abortion.1 do not do it.2 be responsible and teach others to be so. 3 dont waste time in discussing side issues.

That's right. Don't use this forum to promote hatred of men. don't try to use fetuses a hostages to promote "responsibility"

4 dont go on a personal crusade towards those that have different ideas on the subject.

Darwin is foolish if he thinks a vaisnava is jealous of people who are having sex.

darwin doesn't know if someone is a vaisnava, but he thinks that some people on this forum are jealous of people who are having sex, though.

The monkey and pigeons have sex three times in the hour.

Some people can have sex seven times in one hour.

Sex is a much lower taste.

So don't be jealous.

No vaisnava would enjoy it.

They just have to grin and bear it.

quote:

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Originally posted by bhutabhavana:
Then get off the forum, you hate-filled liar.

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You don't want to prevent abortion, you just want to use the issue to stop sex and spread hatred of women. You are against nonviolent birth control to prevent abortion. You are against giving children a decent life. You want to stop sex and spread hatred of women by taking away their birth control and using fetuses as hostages. You and and all the other phony so-called anti abortionists are the main reason we have so many abortions in this country. It is so disgusting of you to post about how the fetus feels pain, and then be against nonviolent birth control to prevent abortion. The average abortion doctor cares more about preventing abortion than you do.

quote:

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Originally posted by Visant:
...I disagree that Vaishnava (hypothetically) cannot enjoy sex, that for a devotionally-minded person 'the act' is the same as animal sex. We SHOULD be much more intelligent, sensitive and caring than a hog or a dog towards our mates, wouldn't you think?

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Yes, one would indeed think so.

always,
Jayaradhe

A middle way?

Like being half pregnant?