Bush and Reagan gave all the pro-life rhetoric, yet abortion was rampant during their terms.

The only way a president can stop abortion is by appointinting proper thinking Supreme Court judges, when and if vacancies arise during their administation.

On the other hand, during the last eight years, these numbers have dropped drastically, as well as teen-age pregnancies, etc. During what rightists would have you believe was a term for butchery.

Dropped drastically in the last eight years?
What numbers do you have to back that up.
Abortions in 1973-774,600
in 1996-1,365,700

It has doubled and is well over 1,500,000 now.
Slight population increase can't account for this increase.Increasing social acceptance can.Right or left has nothing to do with basic arithmetic.

I also find the "quality of life" issue being link to abortion most foul.They are two issues.Leave that arguement for Planned Parenthood, and the other eugenicists to make.

YS MC

Bush and Reagan gave all the pro-life rhetoric, yet abortion was rampant during their terms.

On the other hand, during the last eight years, these numbers have dropped drastically, as well as teen-age pregnancies, etc. During what rightists would have you believe was a term for butchery.

Fact is, pro-life must also mean pro-quality of life. I do not ever consider abortion an option, however I find it apalling that thoise who favor the fetus only does so until birth, and then, no WIC, no pre-natal care, no help whatsoever. And then again these rhetoriticians are only talking white amerikkan fetuses, for they, in whole, support ZPG programs carried out by their world banks, etc.

I do not criticize the unfortunate ignorant caught up in the abortion scandal, I vehemently chastize the abortion industry, wildly supported by demo and repub alike, that have made cannibalism a fact of 21st century life.

Abortion is murder, no question about it. And legal abortion is bad, but there are worse things. And I believe that the life of an unwanted child is one of those worse things.

The fact is that abortions will go on anyway -- and dangerously -- as long as they are illegal. A recent film on the subject was "The Cider House Rules", which might help clarify people's thinking on the subject.

When I was in Mayapur, one of the nicest Bengali devotee couples we had was told by Srila Prabhupada himself not to have any more children. When the wife found herself pregnant, she got an abortion. I don't think for a moment that Prabhupada's order was the only reason for her doing this, but the fact is that she did it, despite being a sad-achari Vaishnava in every respect. She did it without any negative repercussions for her health, but it could have happened.

The fact is that illegal abortions by unqualified people are a cause of death for women, not only in Third World countries, but wherever it is or has been illegal.

I knew another woman devotee here in Montreal who went for a trip to the Carribean and fell for an islander -- a black guy. She came back pregnant. She believed that it was wrong to have an abortion, but she weighed her options and went ahead and did it. It's like so many other things: principles are fine until we are affected and then we act expediently, despite the long-term consequences. The poor girl is half-crazy now and I cannot say whether the abortion had anything to do with it or if it was a pre-existing condition.

I don't approve of abortion. But I believe that we have to recognize that unwanted children are a source of great trouble for society.

As far as India is concerned. The population there is increasing so rapidly that it is barely credible that so many people could live in such a limited space -- at least for anyone who lives in a place like Los Angeles, where every house is separated from others by a freeway and a parking lot.

When I was on my own in India, I got to see a lot of villages. Nowhere did things come to me as vividly as in Krishnanagar where I was taken to visit a pious widow's home. She lived in a house that is about the size of my bedroom with seven children, the oldest of whom was 14; he was the main breadwinner.

Do you think that theirs was a life of simple living and high thinking?

I remember one of our brahmacharis in Mayapur haranguing the crowd with an appeal to abstain from sexual activity as a means to birth control. Give me a break! Maybe that now they have TV in the villages, sex activity will decrease as it is no longer the main source of entertainment. (Americans talk sex a lot, but they mostly prefer watching the football game.)

The fight against overpopulation needs to be conducted on many levels : the education and economic independence of women is the most important element in so doing. Abortion will naturally increase when women become educated and economically independent, but why?

Because women will no longer see themselves prisoners of a social system that requires them to ruin their health and individual potential by having babies every year until they die in childbirth. They may take up birth control, but accidents will happen and they will want to take measures.

To reduce this to a desire for sense-gratification is a mistake.

I know that one of the abortion clinics that John Salvi killed someone at was an abortion mill that did not provide any counseling to the women, but most people in the so-called anti abortion movement are against nonviolent birth control to prevent abortion. Don't you think that they should at least have the decency to shoot themselves in the leg before inciting to murder abortion doctors?

"The 'so called anti abortion movement' consists primarily of nonkrsnadevotees. Since when do these people advocate no sex? I have never heard it. Maybe a few ranting catholics is all, not the movement as a whole."

darwin looked for anti abortionists not against nonviolent birth control to prevent abortion and couldn't find them. The only people he found with basic human decency, who were against all forms of murder, were catholics.

"I do not agree or disagree. I accept its use by those who feel they are in a position to have to use it, and of course it is far better than abortion; yet I would not say that it is necessarily a good thing that it is freely available, or that it will keep abortion numbers down, as it has not. What you don't seem to accept is the point that the vast availability of birth control has done nothing to stem the rising evil of fetus-cide."

Nonviolent birth control prevents millions of pregnancies and abortions each year. If you care about fetuses you will promote nonviolent birth control to prevent abortion.

"Whenever you intend to speak on that(the soul does not all of a sudden enter the fertilized egg), make sure you include the quote from Srila Prabhupada's Srimad Bhagavatam where it describes how the living entities enter the rain, fall on the growing grain, become food to enter the man and then they make their way to the sperm, and the sperm enters the egg."

When darwin said the soul does not all of a sudden enter the fertilized egg, he meant that it does not all of a sudden go into the fertilized egg, having not been in the egg and sperm before. darwin is happy to see that Prabhupada agrees.

"Murder is murder. If it is used simply to kill the fetus on the first morning after conception, or done at 6 weeks with some vacuum, or done later, strangling the fetus as it comes out, or a knife in the heart after the full-term baby is born, it is still murder."

That is false. Killing a zygote (fertilized egg) is not the same as aborting a developed fetus. A zygote does not, as much as a fetus, contain a single soul that is attached to its situation.

"How strange then that you don't realize there is free birth control all over the country. Indeed it is. As is every other medical need or want. And it is also available for free."

That is false. Are you not from America?

"You are confusing abortion with pre-conception birth control."

Pre-conception birth control prevents abortion.

"I have heard of plenty of couples who've had babies AFTER the husband's vasectomy. I've even heard it is a scientific fact that the womb can grow back after being removed."

You heard wrong.

"We can't ultimately cheat material nature."

But you think you can cheat common sense?

"The real problem is that the MEN who conceive the babies don't want to take responsibility. More often than not the woman is left 'holding the baby'. Desperate unprotected women get abortions for the most part, although of course there are rotten apple selfish women too, as in everything there are good and bad, but they are the minority."

They need to use nonviolent birth control to prevent abortion.

"There are 40 million american married women who do NOT want to have sex."

Somebody out there is having allot of sex.

"We are (here to prevent abortion)?????? My spiritual master told me I am here to chant Hare Krsna, and I am chanting Hare Krsna to chant Hare Krsna---the end goal."

This forum is called; "How can we stop abortion?". Doesn't your master want you to help stop abortion?

"If you have a celibacy fetish, get over it."

darwin just loves to say "celibacy fetish" and make other devotees say it.

"I don't understand why you care. (That Most people in the so called anti abortion movement are against nonviolent birth control to prevent abortion.)"

Nonviolent birth control prevents abortion.

"I don't. (care that Most people in the so called anti abortion movement are against nonviolent birth control to prevent abortion.) I do care about the murdered fetuses, though."

You need to care more.

"Mama please don't kill me now..."

If you can hear that,.....

"So bloody what?"

darwin knew you weren't American. You think America has free medical care!

Please tell us where to find the quote from Srila Prabhupada's Srimad Bhagavatam where it describes how the living entities enter the rain, fall on the growing grain, become food to enter the man and then they make their way to the sperm, and the sperm enters the egg. It sounds so nice.

Thank you for caring about fetuses.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tarun Krsnadas:

Anti-abortion aka Pro-life & Capital Punishment are inseparable.
Like object & shadow.
Object & shadow appear, then disappear, then reappear again & again always together.

---

That is because allot of so called anti abortionists promote hate.

quote:

---

Originally posted by darwin:
How can anyone be against nonviolent birth control to prevent abortion? Are they against killing sperm?

---

Can a sperm turn into a fetus???? Duh-uh!

quote:

---

Originally posted by darwin:

Read BB's post where he is inciting to murder.

I already did. He is talking about murdering abortionists, not birth controlonists. There's a very big difference. I do not wish to express an opinion on that idea, yet I certainly see the justice in it. Don't you???

Most people in the so called anti abortion movement are trying stop people from having sex and want to take away their birth control. Birth control was illegal in much of the US into the 1960's.

The 'so called anti abortion movement' consists primarily of nonkrsnadevotees. Since when do these people advocate no sex? I have never heard it. Maybe a few ranting catholics is all, not the movement as a whole.

"Abortion is the ULTIMATE in hatred of women."---lphp

So you agree that contraception needs to be freely available to prevent abortion?

I do not agree or disagree. I accept its use by those who feel they are in a position to have to use it, and of course it is far better than abortion; yet I would not say that it is necessarily a good thing that it is freely available, or that it will keep abortion numbers down, as it has not. What you don't seem to accept is the point that the vast availability of birth control has done nothing to stem the rising evil of fetus-cide.

[/B]"And as for the morning after pill, an egg is ONLY fertilised if the spirit soul enters it."[/B]---lphp

That's wrong, the soul does not all of a sudden enter. (darwin will speak on this in another post)

Whatever you intend to speak on that, make sure you include the quote from Srila Prabhupada's Srimad Bhagavatam where it describes how the living entities enter the rain, fall on the growing grain, become food to enter the man and then they make their way to the sperm, and the sperm enters the egg. Where in this journey actually does the spirit soul leave the sperm before it enters the egg and then re-enter the sperm which has already fertilised the egg? I am intrigued by this new philosophy.

"The morning after pill is murder too."---lphp

Not when used to prevent aborting the fetus in a more developed stage.

Murder is murder. If it is used simply to kill the fetus on the first morning after conception, or done at 6 weeks with some vacuum, or done later, strangling the fetus as it comes out, or a knife in the heart after the full-term baby is born, it is still murder.

darwin lives in the United States of America, thank god.

How strange then that you don't realise there is free birth control all over the country.

Birth control is for sale all over America.

Indeed it is. As is every other medical need or want. And it is also available for free.

You are confusing preventing sex with preventing abortion.

No I am not. You are confusing abortion with pre-conception birth control.

Sterilization of one partner is also a foolproof method.

O no it's not. I have heard of plenty of couples who've had babies AFTER the husband's vasectmy. I've even heard it is a scientific fact that the womb can grow back after being removed. We can't ultimately cheat material nature. The real problem is that the MEN who conceive the babies don't want to take responsibility. More often than not the woman is left 'holding the baby'. Desperate unprotected women get abortions for the most part, although of course there are rotten apple selfish women too, as in everything there are good and bad, but they are the minority.

Abstinence won't work for most people because they are too horny. The best method is one that the people will use.

There are 40 million american married women who do NOT want to have sex. And growing fast. Celibacy is also becoming popular among single people, including school age kids. Why do you think this phenomenon is occuring? I would guess it is all do to the ever-increasing transcendental sound vibration of the Holy Names on the planet, which will only continue to grow unchecked.

Remember, we are here to prevent abortion,

We are??????
My spiritual master told me I am here to chant Hare Krsna, and I am chanting Hare Krsna to chant Hare Krsna---the end goal.

not promote our celibacy fetish.

If you have a celibacy fetish, get over it. I don't, and I did not ever. I have no problem with celibacy or sexuality.

Most people in the so called anti abortion movement are against nonviolent birth control to prevent abortion.

I don't understand why you care. I don't. I do care about the murdered fetuses, though. "Mama please don't kill me now..."

Most people in the so called anti abortion movement want to take away peoples birth control so that they can't have sex without producing a fetus.

So bloody what? Why do you care??????? Are you in the birth control business?

One should say "do you have one of those bongs".

---

Read BB's post where he is inciting to murder.

"No one is trying to stop people from having sex OR take away their birth control."

Most people in the so called anti abortion movement are trying stop people from having sex and want to take away their birth control. Birth control was illegal in much of the US into the 1960's.

"Abortion is the ULTIMATE in hatred of women."

So you agree that contraception needs to be freely available to prevent abortion?

"And as for the morning after pill, an egg is ONLY fertilised if the spirit soul enters it."

That's wrong, the soul does not all of a sudden enter. (darwin will speak on this in another post)

The morning after pill is murder too."

Not when used to prevent aborting the fetus in a more developed stage.

"And what country did you say you llve in????"

darwin lives in the United States of America, thank god.

"Birth control is available for free all over America,"

Birth control is for sale all over America.

"To say that abstinence is the best method....... is just stating a fact,"

You are confusing preventing sex with preventing abortion. Sterilization of one partner is also a foolproof method. Abstinence won't work for most people because they are too horny. The best method is one that the people will use. Remember, we are here to prevent abortion, not promote our celibacy fetish.

"not threatening to take people's methods of birth control away."

Most people in the so called anti abortion movement are against nonviolent birth control to prevent abortion.

" 'holding fetus as hostage'---what kind of paranoia is this?"

Most people in the so called anti abortion movement want to take away peoples birth control so that they can't have sex without producing a fetus.

"Think about it. Did you forget your meds?" Or do you got one of them bongs to smoke your crystal with?"

One should say "do you have one of those bongs".

Abortion is the ULTIMATE in hatred of women. The ultimate hate!

And as for the morning after pill, an egg is ONLY fertilised if the spirit soul enters it. The morning after pill is murder too.

And what country did you say you llve in???? Birth control is available for free all over America, and has been for at least thirty years. The main one is called 'Planned Parenthood', but probly there are many more such clinics by now.

To say that abstinence is the best method, which it obviously is to anyone with normal intelligence, is just stating a fact, not threatening to take people's methods of birth control away.

'holding fetus as hostage'---what kind of paranoia is this? Think about it. Did you forget your meds? Or do you got one of them bongs to smoke your crystal with?

"Tarun, i misunderstood.Now I get it.STOP."

That's right! Stop using the abortion issue to promote women hating political agitation.

"Yes it is that simple.No grand social engineering schemes needed."

That's right! No need for a grand social engineering scheme to extend state law enforcement powers to inside a woman's vagina.

"Just STOP!"

That's right! Stop trying to prevent people from having sex by denying women access to birth control, using babies as hostages.

quote:

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John salvi said:
Look, I'm the one that hasn't eaten, and there's been food poisoning, and is not feeling one. You're the one that probably ate red lobster last night.

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. This link is against the psychiatry industry, not about John Salvi. I put this in because the organization behind the above link, National Alliance for the Mentally Ill, might be evil, I don't have time to check.