"don't tell anyone you got this from me, but there's a TD (...) who is a former cheater and now a head admin on another server"
It's only a game.
(...) I'm looking at all sides. our side, and the economic side of this.
my personal opinion is 'fuck em all'
but I have to be objective, and that's not a small task.
from a personal stand point, I hate to deal with a cheater.
But there are other interests here.
(...)
exactly. Honest members .
my whole point in the first email was regarding honest members.
we are too tolerant on convicted cheaters.
we let them come back with a clean slate, and cheat again.
(...)
Thanks for replying Drunclear. I agree that we should not be tolerant of anyone who has been convicted of cheating in the past.
______________________________
3: This handle is now officially abandoned.
4: I will not stop playing chess on ICC.
5:
6: My handle has changed.
7: Who am I now? You will never find out. I have learned a lesson about
anonimity on this fascist server!
______________________________
Here's the message I left CheaterB: "You have been caught
cheating with a computer. This is not your first time. We are not amused."
______________________________
CheaterC (what a lovely handle for such a cheater) sweared, promised not to cheat again 9 months ago and started to cheat again at least 3 times, in several games. He was added to the (C) list 3 times after he swore not to cheat again! My god, what are you guys doing, thinking here?? How many options and sub-options, second, third and nth chances are you tolerating/offering to caught cheaters?? I want an answer.
Exchange sacrifice with sufficient positional compensation
Let's look at this calmly...
If CheaterD requests a refund, his other account will immediately be
banned. We do not allow people who receive a refund to be members of ICC. If he does not request a refund, then he loses his money
______________________________
Actually all of CheaterE's accounts were +(C)ed: no less than 11 (eleven) different known accounts. One after the other. Cheating in possibly over 2000 games, over 1500 games for sure. During well over 2 years of cheating.
______________________________
Cheaters are paying members: they play chess too, you know.
______________________________
Perhaps there should be a step before +comp and (...)
a step where one of us has a quiet word with the
suspect. We could say that we are suspicious that he may
be consulting a computer to make his moves, (...)
and ask if he knows
about our policy regarding using computer chess programs.
Maybe the suspect will say "I didn't know doing that was
a serious offense", or "that was when my brother used my
account", or some other such excuse, in which case we can
point out the relevant policy statement, and maybe the guy
will change his behavior and still feel good in
general.
It depends somewhat on what our goals are, once we've
caught someone cheating. The current way looks like it is
designed to humiliate the cheater, (...).
If our goals are instead to
change the person's behavior and be as friendly as we
can to everyone, then I think we should give him a chance
to save face.
______________________________
Had you cheated with a computer instead of creating the duplicate accounts at the time that you did it, you would have been immediately banned for a long time too. All the ICSes have become more lenient over the last few years.
Todd Freitag, alt.chess.ics, September 8th 1999
______________________________
They can come back if they promise not to cheat again.
______________________________
Cheaters often came back: they pay to play.
______________________________
They want the cheaters' money.
Tactical oversight
Actually, I left out the first time he was added to the Computer list. This makes the 3rd! time been added to the (C) list. The SECOND time CheaterF was caught using a computer, he should have never been removed from the list. What's going on here?
Far advanced protected passed pawn
oh, we have a new policy on computer cheaters now :)
I'm really proud of it :)
I wait until they log back on and then make a public
announcement that they have been caught cheating and
will wear the CA label because of it
I did one this weekend, and almost got a standing
ovation from the other members on at the time
______________________________
Many honest members among all the chess players out there know deep down inside that, when they play chess, they meaningfully contribute to chess as a sport, as a profession, and as a source of emotional development.
Mate in 14
Finger note from an honest-playing 1200 member
4 : Please do not cheat against me. You don't need a chess program to beat me.
[Event "ICC tourney 39273 (15 0)"]
[Site "Internet Chess Club"]
[Date "1998.10.09"]
[Round "-"]
[White "Crimsonknight"]
[Black "Middle-Earth"]
[Result "0-1"]
[WhiteElo "1219"]
[BlackElo "2386"]
[Opening "Bishop's opening: Berlin defense"]
[ECO "C24"]
[NIC "IG.04"]
[Time "13:22:54"]
[TimeControl "900+0"]
1. e4 (0:35) e5 (0:03)
2. Bc4 (0:02) Nf6 (0:08)
3. Qf3 (0:04) Nc6 (0:32)
4. Nh3 (0:03) Nd4 (0:24)
5. Qd3 (0:06) d5 (0:25)
6. exd5 (0:09) Bf5 (0:10)
7. Qxf5 (0:14) Nxf5 (0:03)
8. d6 (0:35) Nd4 (0:26)
9. Ng5 (0:13) Nxc2+ (0:15)
10. Kd1 (0:04) Nxa1 (0:11)
11. Nxf7 (0:01) Qd7 (0:35)
12. dxc7 (0:03) Qg4+ (0:30)
13. f3 (0:30) Qxc4 (0:21)
14. Nxh8 (0:22) Ng4 (0:10)
15. Na3 (0:18) Nf2+ (0:16)
16. Ke1 (0:10) Nd3+ (0:04)
17. Kd1 (0:19) Qxc1+ (0:10)
18. Ke2 (0:13) Nf4+ (0:01)
19. Kf2 (0:05) Qxd2+ (0:06)
20. Kg3 (0:08) Qxg2+ (0:04)
21. Kh4 (0:06) g5# (0:03)
{White checkmated} 0-1
More
0 2567 Lycaon 2801 HansBundy 1-0 [ br 3 0] E04 Fla 26-May-99
1 2828 HansBundy 2540 Lycaon 1-0 [ br 3 0] D20 Res 26-May-99
2 2545 Lycaon 2823 HansBundy 0-1 [ br 3 0] D13 Res 26-May-99
3 2828 HansBundy 3044 GMAlex 0-1 [ br 3 0] D90 Mat 26-May-99
4 2716 Tankist 2836 HansBundy 0-1 [ br 3 0] A50 Res 25-May-99
5 2824 HansBundy 2728 Tankist 1-0 [ br 3 0] D39 Res 25-May-99
6 2741 Tankist 2811 HansBundy 0-1 [ br 3 0] E60 Res 25-May-99
7 2797 HansBundy 2787 chabela 1-0 [ br 3 0] D17 Mat 25-May-99
8 2804 chabela 2780 HansBundy 0-1 [ br 3 0] B90 Mat 25-May-99
9 2761 HansBundy 2823 chabela 0-1 [ br 3 0] D20 Res 25-May-99
10 2809 chabela 2775 HansBundy 0-1 [ br 3 0] E92 Res 25-May-99
11 2756 HansBundy 2828 chabela 1-0 [ br 3 0] D20 Mat 25-May-99
12 2667 FERARI 2735 HansBundy 0-1 [ br 3 0] B23 Res 25-May-99
13 2721 HansBundy 2681 FERARI 1-0 [ br 3 0] A50 Res 25-May-99
14 2697 FERARI 2705 HansBundy = [ br 3 0] B23 TM 25-May-99
15 2705 HansBundy 2697 FERARI 1-0 [ br 3 0] E76 Res 25-May-99
16 2829 chabela 2688 HansBundy 1-0 [ br 3 0] D86 Res 25-May-99
17 2699 HansBundy 2818 chabela 0-1 [ br 3 0] A80 Res 25-May-99
18 2806 chabela 2711 HansBundy = [ br 3 0] A04 Rep 25-May-99
19 2706 HansBundy 2811 chabela 0-1 [ br 3 0] A80 Fla 25-May-99
[Type "more" to see more.]
more
20 2799 chabela 2718 HansBundy 0-1 [ br 3 0] B33 Res 25-May-99
21 2697 HansBundy 2820 chabela 1-0 [ br 3 0] E97 Res 25-May-99
22 2567 mariquita 2674 HansBundy 0-1 [ br 3 0] A01 Fla 25-May-99
23 2662 HansBundy 2579 mariquita 1-0 [ br 3 0] A40 Res 25-May-99
24 2592 mariquita 2649 HansBundy 0-1 [ br 3 0] B20 Fla 25-May-99
25 2634 HansBundy 2607 mariquita 1-0 [ br 3 0] A40 Res 25-May-99
26 2623 mariquita 2618 HansBundy 0-1 [ br 3 0] B00 Res 25-May-99
27 2600 HansBundy 2641 mariquita 0-1 [ br 3 0] A40 Res 25-May-99
28 2625 mariquita 2616 HansBundy 0-1 [ br 3 0] B20 Res 25-May-99
29 2598 HansBundy 2643 mariquita 0-1 [ br 3 0] D15 Fla 25-May-99
30 2628 mariquita 2613 HansBundy 1-0 [ br 3 0] D15 Fla 25-May-99
31 2630 HansBundy 2611 mariquita 0-1 [ br 3 0] A40 Fla 25-May-99
32 2592 mariquita 2649 HansBundy 0-1 [ br 3 0] B96 Res 25-May-99
33 2634 HansBundy 2607 mariquita 1-0 [ br 3 0] D37 Res 25-May-99
34 2623 mariquita 2618 HansBundy 1-0 [ br 3 0] A01 Fla 25-May-99
35 2635 HansBundy 2606 mariquita 1-0 [ br 3 0] A44 Res 25-May-99
36 2622 mariquita 2619 HansBundy 0-1 [ br 3 0] A01 Res 25-May-99
37 2601 HansBundy 2640 mariquita 1-0 [ br 3 0] A43 Res 25-May-99
38 2660 mariquita 2581 HansBundy 1-0 [ br 3 0] B90 Fla 25-May-99
39 2595 HansBundy 2537 MrXYZ2 1-0 [ br 3 0] D30 Res 25-May-99
40 2552 MrXYZ2 2580 HansBundy = [ br 3 0] B22 Rep 25-May-99
[Type "more" to see more.]
more
41 2581 HansBundy 2551 MrXYZ2 = [ br 3 0] D34 Rep 25-May-99
42 2549 MrXYZ2 2583 HansBundy 0-1 [ br 3 0] B22 Res 25-May-99
43 2567 HansBundy 2641 Parsifal 1-0 [ br 3 0] A70 Fla 25-May-99
44 2662 Parsifal 2546 HansBundy 1-0 [ br 3 0] B23 Mat 25-May-99
45 2558 HansBundy 2583 ahmatti 1-0 [ br 3 0] D85 Res 25-May-99
46 2602 ahmatti 2539 HansBundy 0-1 [ br 3 0] A05 Mat 25-May-99
47 2518 HansBundy 2623 ahmatti 0-1 [ br 3 0] D85 Res 25-May-99
48 2611 ahmatti 2530 HansBundy 1-0 [ br 3 0] B84 Fla 25-May-99
49 2544 HansBundy 2597 ahmatti 0-1 [ br 3 0] D96 Fla 25-May-99
50 2582 ahmatti 2559 HansBundy 1-0 [ br 3 0] B84 Res 25-May-99
51 2576 HansBundy 2565 ahmatti 1-0 [ br 3 0] D97 Res 25-May-99
52 2559 HansBundy 2495 stivell 1-0 [ br 3 0] A80 Res 25-May-99
53 2509 stivell 2545 HansBundy 0-1 [ br 3 0] B90 Res 25-May-99
54 2529 HansBundy 2525 stivell = [ br 3 0] A80 Rep 25-May-99
55 2547 stivell 2529 HansBundy 0-1 [ br 3 0] B52 Res 25-May-99
56 2470 cdw 2511 HansBundy 0-1 [ br 3 0] A00 Res 25-May-99
57 2496 HansBundy 2485 cdw 1-0 [ br 3 0] A42 Res 25-May-99
58 2502 cdw 2479 HansBundy 0-1 [ br 3 0] A00 Mat 25-May-99
59 2460 HansBundy 2426 CasaNueva 1-0 [ br 3 0] A58 Res 25-May-99
60 2442 CasaNueva 2444 HansBundy 0-1 [ br 3 0] B96 Res 25-May-99
61 2427 HansBundy 2459 CasaNueva 1-0 [ br 3 0] A58 Res 25-May-99
[Type "more" to see more.]
more
62 2543 MrXYZ2 2408 HansBundy 0-1 [ br 3 0] B22 Res 25-May-99
63 2384 HansBundy 2567 MrXYZ2 1-0 [ br 3 0] D34 Res 25-May-99
64 2345 HansBundy 2303 Prof-Moria 1-0 [ br 3 0] E94 Res 25-May-99
65 2330 HansBundy 2386 SubHumAns 1-0 [ br 3 0] E12 Mat 25-May-99
66 2784 WoodTree 1925 HansBundy 1-0 [ br 3 0] D90 Mat 25-May-99
67 1925 HansBundy 2784 WoodTree 0-1 [ br 3 0] B20 Mat 25-May-99
68 2958 nataf 1925 HansBundy 1-0 [ bu 3 0] B43 Res 29-Mar-99
69 2958 nataf 1925 HansBundy 1-0 [ bu 3 0] B43 Res 29-Mar-99
70 2344 HansBundy 2378 Razoes 0-1 [ sr 15 0] C20 Fla 23-Mar-99
71 2369 ADOLF 2388 HansBundy = [ sr 15 0] B54 NM 03-Oct-98
Information about HansBundy (Last disconnected Thu May 27 1999 08:37):
rating [need] win loss draw total best
Wild 1499 [6] 0 1 0 1
Bughouse 1495 [2] 0 4 0 4
Bullet 1609 761 964 19 1744 1889 (08-Jun-1998)
Blitz 2000 2379 2597 166 5142 2000 (27-May-1999)
Standard 2000 [6] 8 1 1 10
1: Hallo, I'm **** *.*. ** *****, I work & agree on Friedrich Nietszsche
though I drink more.
2: I love the best soccer-club of the world Ajax Amsterdam, Cannes, Nice,
drinks, gambling & women if there is time left.
3: Chessplayers are poor lovers. I do not play chess. Lollipop is a chessplayer
I like.
4: Favourite chessplayers: Erik Knoppert, Gary Lane, Loek van Wely, Angus
Dunnington, Gata Kamsky.
5: Freedom is just another wordt for nothing left to loose (Janis Joplin).
Chessplayers therefore have a freedom-bug.
6: World! Galactic universe! Watch Who Rules! Coming from NL, WOODTREE,
The Best There Is. Hello Gary, are you there?
7: I will make Gata play again.
8: If I were a woman I always would be pregnant because I simply cannot say no.
9: God is dood en ik zelf voel me ook niet lekker.
10: 4 legs in a bed do not make a marriage yet.
Disconnection: the game has been stored.
i am very concerned about people using computers
i was rated 2200 not long ago
and then started losing a lot. but my play is not poor
now i am 1900
not to say that slumps don't happen
b ut it gets very frustrating
I just don't want to make any false accusations either
you are smart to write about this
my name is *censored* from Albany NY
I may stop playing here
or just play much less
or just play my friends
The game has been adjudicated
DrUnclear (20:09 16-Sep-98 EDT): Please, I need to talk to you when you have a moment.
DrUnclear (16:20 04-Oct-98 EDT): Hi! Please do not trust CheaterH at all. I think he's cheating (...)
Sun Jan 31 15:11:11 EST (Sun Jan 31 20:11:11 GMT)
CheaterH(1): Imaster wrote: how can i give an observer of my game the opportunity to make moves too
CheaterH(1): for examined games, you can "mex <player">
CheaterH(1): but during normal games, it would make cheating trivial :)
One week later, CheaterH admitted having cheated in his rated games. He never had any ICS power revoked, never had his ICS label of respectability removed, never had to apologize to anyone, never was (C)-labelled, never was added to any abuser list, never was sanctioned, never was exposed, never was suspended, never was banned, never had to comply with any policy.
Kibitz
hey
sorry to bother you
just want to say I agree with your observation of the rampant cheating
it is ridiculous
______________________________
if the man took more time to watch who was playing on his server instead of chatting while eating a ham sandwich, he might catch a few cheaters himself.
______________________________
i caught *censored*, and *censored* cheating.... you should start an independant club.
______________________________
Because of the experiences described above
admins and
servers are fed up with cheaters they will more quickly than ever
decide to
ban a suspected foul player. In fact we are all fed up with it.
Jeroen, rec.games.chess.misc, August 19th 1999
______________________________
If DeepBlue Jr ever becomes a commercial reality and an affordable one, cheaters will line up to buy it. Some of them will complain that it costs more than ChessMaster 7000 or Fritz 6 while others will whine that they can't have a free 30 day demo version of the motherboard and chips.
______________________________
Cheaters don't care about winning and losing, but about dominating. They have to make everyone feel inferior; it isn't enough to win.
______________________________
I've had a long conversation with Dr. Unclear about cheating on chess
networks. (...) He has a lot of knowledge about this area of cheating (using computers to help a player during a game) and is convinced that (...). I'm overwhelmed by the points he mentions -- I'm no techie (...).
From a well known International Grand Master
______________________________
I am getting tired of FICS because of the increasing number of players using computers to win. FICS seems to take forever to get around to doing anything about it--if they do actually do anything.(...)
At least 3 of the top 20 players on FICS are computer abusers. I have sent complaints about 2 of them, with evidence, to FICS computerabuse. Weeks have gone by nothing has been done and I have had no response.
June 4th 2000 in rec.games.chess.misc
Leon Pereira, PhD Clinical Psychologist
I have evidence on two players. Have submitted both to computerabuse at FICS. In one case, it is so obvious one does not need to dig deep to catch on. In the other case, the games over different months were saved and analyzed by an experienced user--experienced, that is, in working with chess programs and analyzing games with them. There are other pieces of information such as this player being rated 2100+ but having very poor and patchy knowledge of even basic principles.
As for the third person, I have not spent time yet on details simply
because if admin does nothing about the first two complaints I sure am
not going to waste my time on additional complaints.
June 23rd 2000 in rec.games.chess.misc and alt.chess.ics
Leon Pereira, PhD Clinical Psychologist
As for FICS, its not just that they do not expose. Its that they usually do nothing. I have complained about 2 obvious cheats. And have seen no results. No change in ratings etc. I have discovered another cheat but have not bothered to inform the admin. Its a waste of time. In one case, another fics member helped me by sending admin detailed analysis of the suspect games and even this had no effect.
In the 18 months or more that I have been active on FICs, I have only
suspected 5 players of computer abuse. So, its not like I dream this up.
Fri, 15 Dec 2000
Leon Pereira, PhD Clinical Psychologist
______________________________
I have given up on those (A-FICS) guys.
Robert Hyatt Ph.D.
______________________________
Beelzebub(2): they do ban people more frequently for channel tells and shouts
than for actual miscreant activities such as cheating, etc., tho -- at
least that is how it seems to me. Maybe it's just harder to catch
someone.
mlong(*)(2): we have guidelines as to what we can and can not do.
mlong(*)(2): and we try to follow them every single time.
______________________________
Same with chess software/databases with Internet connectivity features, ICS interface capabilities (told fpawn)
you should ask your A-FICS friedns to read the email i sent on may 15th (told fpawn)
fpawn tells you: I read it
I sent that email to the 4 ICSes (told fpawn)
well, then you know that AFICS did basically NOTHING out of it (told fpawn)
fpawn tells you: that's true
they never contacted *censored1* (told fpawn)
they never contacted *censored2*(told fpawn)
they did nothing (told fpawn)
and that my friend is tacklig the problem at the source (told fpawn)
fpawn tells you: I think I could (if I wanted to) (C)heat in a way that would
make detection next to impossible
fpawn tells you: I could probably (C)heat for a long time
______________________________
(...) I also reported it to the computer abuse
account, asking them to help this player set his account up as a
computer.
Guess what? Yep - months later the account was still active and
playing games, with no '(C)' behind the handle. I encountered numerous
other players I strongly suspected of computer abuse, and reported
most of them to the admins. But it never seemed to do any good, and
the frequency at which I would play what I believed
were computers did not diminish. I really got tired of it.
Randy Pals in alt.chess.ics, rec.games.chess.computer,
rec.games.chess.misc, rec.games.chess.politics on 2000/06/26.
______________________________
(...) You can apply for a computer account and then not hear anything
for months. So for some reason FICS makes it hard to do the right
thing.
James B. Shearer in alt.chess.ics, rec.games.chess.computer,
rec.games.chess.misc, rec.games.chess.politics on 2000/06/26
______________________________
You were right. I asked TheDane (A-FICS Head admin) what they do to control the cheating problem. He said that they don't do much about cheating. I was shocked. Nevertheless I was expecting A-FICS to supervise possible cheating during that tournament considering the sponsors. They did nothing.
______________________________
Thank you for bringing the chess-cheater issue before the public. There is no doubt that many players are cheating on ICS play.(...) It is a sad day for the game we love. Chess seems like a perfect game for play on the net, but, as you have ably pointed out, this is not so. Hopefully, these issues will someday be resolved, but I'm not holding my breath.
______________________________
My Admins basically tell me it's just a game and I don't be so serious, to which I reply, why don't you tell that to the cheater? If its just a game, why such unscrupulous driving passion to always win whatever the means? Does he (Admin) play games with loaded dice, or stacked deck??? Does he enjoy playing with cheaters?
I really support what you do as I too have a high sense of fairness and don't mind losing a fair game. I too desire to see chess continue to progress and be enjoyed. I'm afraid, too, that such "fixing" of games will discourage internet play and have a negative impact on club and tournament play too.
The whole point of my telling you this is, not so you worrry about it, but that, since the Admin is powerless, his only defense, is denial of the problem !
"come on friend, rating is not health, rating is not money, rating is nothing if say truth" InterChess.com's Chief Admin
(...) They just deny the problem, or say there is nothing to be done.
(...) a new discussion ensues with a rather more laconic and embarrassed chief Admin, some waffling on his part and remarks about *me* taking the game too seriously, not playing just for the points but for the game and a final word. Also, he asks, do you still think *so-an-so* is a cheater?
______________________________
We at US Chess Live have developed a comprehensive system for both
determining and dealing with suspected computer cheaters on the service.(...)
If the team determines that the user was most likely using computer assistance, a (C) is affixed to his handle and further sanctions will be taken against the player. (...) In
the near future, USCL (...). But I can tell you that we've already found more than 100 computer cheaters on USCL since we launched. So we are watching for it and catching
them.
Fri, 15 Dec 2000 15:34:38
______________________________
(told *censored*: they say they caught 100 cheaters in 45 days)
(told *censored*: all they do is +(C) them)
*censored* tells you: Don't believe that
(told *censored*: it might be exaggerated)
(told *censored*: you don't believe they have caught 100 cheaters?)
*censored* tells you: Nope, I've been there
*censored* tells you: (...)
*censored* tells you: (...)
*censored* tells you: (...)
*censored* tells you: (...)
*censored* tells you: (...) and played an IM and 1 of the admins there and they didn't suspect a thing
(...)
(...)
(...)
*censored* tells you: (...) they can't see a thing
Tue Dec 26, 7:20 2000
"You can't play this move. Your king is in check."
*Q* tells you: I reported CheaterI after his 10th game. Nobody
listened.
*Q* tells you: And I was firmly ordered to put a lid on it.
*Q* tells you: There were many many others I tagged.. and nobody listened.
*Q* tells you: In fact, I was ridiculed on several occations, (...)
CheaterI is a veteran cheater (told *Q*)
he cheated in well over 1200 games in a total of 3 known accounts over 2 years (told *Q*)
CheaterI cheated on 2 different ICSes, well over 1200 games, and was an admin and cheating while being an admin (told *Q*)
*Q* tells you: *Censored* must have heard my words ringing in his ears as you told him too.. LOL!
______________________________
that really blows my mind--he is even a *censored*. CheaterJ (...)
plus, he told me sunday nite that he was getting lessons
from IM schroer
this whole thing is sickening and unbelievable (i agree with u by the way)
(...)
good point
(...)
JESUS H. (...). Can this be CORRECT??? hell no
(...)
JESUS....this really blows my mind. I really thought it was odd on Sunday that he said hello to me. He probably wondered what we were up to
plus he claimed that he had never heard of you--anyone who is *censored* knows of you
this really pisses me off.
This guy is an *censored*
well, the evidence looks pretty friggin damning.....it just destroys my mind
man, if CheaterJ gets (c)ed that will be an amazing event---lots of people recognize him due to (...)
this is funny. If you look(...) I finger *censored* and he turns out to be a computer! Wonder if he was
always a computer or later caught?
(...)--opponent turns out to have
a C next to name. Person or computer when played is the question? LOL
game 8 was also a computer....*censored*'s
notes are in italian so i can't read them, but i suspect he was discovered.
This is a joke....if CheaterJ is playing with a computer, he has been playing
against a bunch of other computers! LOL
sorry for all these msgs, but this is as
interesting as a Sherlock Holmes mystery.
______________________________
*X* tells you: I spent a month gathering enough evidence of a cheater (two
computer player) and (...) and gathering testimonials from people
watching or playing against thim... we BARELY got him
*X* tells you: we got him but all that work.. and still it was a struggle
*X* tells you: *Censored SysOp* flat out comes out with .. listen unless we are over their shoulder we can't be 100% sure, unless it's blatant blue away
*X* tells you: after all the work I did.. we got him but it didn't
matter.. cause when I went after another proven cheater, I forgot he was
friends with someone who held power in VOG before my arrival, and then
they set out to destroy me (...)
*X* tells you: even though he wasn't a sysop at the time, he swore his friend
wasn't a cheater..but his friend was.. was a cheater from CML actually,
undesputed. tried to pass himself off as the real *censored* IM .. so
I went as far to find the real *censored* IM from ICC and talked to him, no
idea what VOG was
(...)
*X* tells you: and so forth.. turns out it's this *censored*, who's
cheated countless numbers of people..but at our next team meeting *censored SysOp* told
me to drop it cause he's *censored*'s friend
*X* tells you: he said, listen I know, but unless he goes blue away let it
go.. its not worth giving *censored* another reason to explode publically
(...)
*X* tells you: 2 honest Sys Ops and 3 prior to me left just because of that
*X* tells you: They figured out it's impossible to bypass the petty rules and politics in order to tackle the real issue - cheating
(...)
*X* tells you: the admins are nannies and stay-at-home moms in some respects
*X* tells you: it's very easy to ban someone quickly
*X* tells you: instant ban for profanity, just cut/paste the remarks etc.. voila, he's banned
*X* tells you: the cheaters.. nope.. looong process..not worth the effort
*X* tells you: only if like half the server complains
(...)
*X* tells you: percisely
*X* tells you: the best ones quit because of that
(...)
*X* tells you: anyway, we've been over this million times.. I doubt things
will change
whisper : what you (C) is what you get
DropZone(2): computers and computer cheats are blue dots
Ferret(C)(2): computer cheats should have no dot
Ferret(C)(2): but this is probably impractical
lister(2): computer cheats are everywhere on this server
bikejr(2): computer cheats should have a special symbol besides a (C)
Gold-Chocobo(2): Cheating....er...erm.... :)
bikejr(2): like and (M) for moron
______________________________
The way cheaters are added to the (C) list, it becomes more and more difficult for manual and auto-response (C) account operators to find humans willing to play them. As a resort of this, people use cheat accounts in order to find human opponents they were looking for to begin with/in the first place. There ought to be a separate list for caught cheaters.
______________________________
mlong(*) tells you: Being added to the computer list is a priviledge here. We don't do this for cheaters.
______________________________
Regarding your questionaire, here's a few opinions and a bit of a rant:: #23 - If a person is unequivocably been caught cheating, they should be appended to a special abusers list for this purpose. Also, an (A), for asshole, should be appended to their handle for 90 days.
Moretime 3 months
It is unclear to me what the policy is regarding such people and also
what type of punitive action that you take. (...)
if my suspicion about him is true, CheaterG is getting
assistance during his games (like a computer) and he is making his honest
opponents miserable by his cheating ways. (...)
Please forgive me if I am causing you a problem by bringing this to your
attention, nevertheless, this issue is really irritating me.
3 months later, this titled member resigned and disconnected from internet chess; he never came back.
Lag
I am in complete agreement with Doc's observations, but I am unclear on one thing. Is the ICC compelled to give refunds for (C)heats since they are, in fact, in violation of ICC policy? If the ICC wouldn't have to give refunds, (C)heats would be less likely to leave and re-open a fresh account (...)
date: August 12th 1998
ping: 1 day
______________________________
he agreed about your mention of the ICC helpfiles
!!!!!!!!!
soon to be written
!!!!!!
Oh, as DrUnclear has pointed out we need a better help file describing the phenomenon of computer cheating and our way of handling it. We're going to develop this shortly.
date: August 25th 1998
ping: 14 days
______________________________
We just have to make the policy clear and known to everybody.
date: September 13th 1998
ping: 1 month and 2 days
______________________________
I want a help file that really explains what stand the ICC takes on assisted
play. *Censored*, DrUnclear, and a few others have some good ideas, and I have
hopes this helpfile will be available soon.
date: September 22nd 1998
ping: 1 month and 11 days
______________________________
I will speak to the man in charge of the helpfiles and see if we can put one up soon.
date: May 7th 1999
ping: 9 months and 26 days
______________________________
Cheaters should get a chance to stop.
date: December 4th 1999
ping: 15 months and 22 days
Prize tourneys and fun
gotham(*) tells you: It's going to become a brand new way of having fun. Gregory Belmont
March 5th 1998
______________________________
(...) I wonder what the other participants will think, feel and how they will react once they know that they played/lost to a cheater in the previous tournaments.
Giving concrete and solid enticements to all members will likely bring
more determination into participants, honest ones as well as unscrupulous ones.
And yes, people are usually more tempted by profit motive: this is common sense.
No need to do a deep criminology study about this. People are not dumb: they
know ICC will be watching.(...)
March 6th 1998
______________________________
mlong(*)(2): prize tourneys will always bring out cheaters.
______________________________
He paid nothing. He lost nothing. So we owe him nothing.
______________________________
(...) How do you think people will react when you'll tell them: "We didn't spot him in previous tourneys."? Are you ready to tell participants "You paid nothing to play in that prize tourney. You lost nothing. So we owe you nothing."? (...)
A no-call can be as much dramatic and devastating as a bad call. (...) when prizes are involved, the acceptable margin of error for participants is nil.(...)
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As online chess is getting more and more popular, and online tourneys with prize money start to show up on the chess servers, cheating will become more and more of a problem. Money will certainly be a strong motivation to cheat for most people. And you can't even trust tourney managers nowadays :)
GCP, rec.games.chess.misc, August 19th 1999
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They will ban you for knowing too much of their dirty laundry.
______________________________
We missed him in an earlier tourney: he won (...).
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I understand but on ICC I felt the cheating was rather rampant
(...)
but on ICC I felt that 1 of about 10 people were computer
cheating in one form or another
even had it happen to me in one of the USCF quick tourneys
later verified by both ICC and USCF - game was not rated
besthund
he beat Parsifal in an ICC quick - which made them suspicious
and then he announced mate in eight in his next game
and they concluded he had used a computer in his last two
USCF wuick tourneys (Jan and Feb)
it was wierd as ICC and USCF both sent me e-mail saying
they determined he was using a C
but they never C'd him - but he also stopped playing
rated games there
yeah I am just kinda sour on ICC right now so someone
told me to try this server
mainly that there are so many obvious ones
they make you complain to speedtrap and you never hear
the results of the investigation
your web page could become an interesting book 0 if
anyone would publish it!
it made me very aware of how people cheat and how not to
simply assume that someone playing better than me was cheating
(...)
(told *censored*: type this)
(told *censored*: /=compa and there you'll see a public list)
(told *censored*: of caught cheaters here: all of them. No secret. No mystery)
(told *censored*: plain truth from chess.net. Nothin hidden.)
WOWWWWWWW
(told *censored*: this compa list started on june 16th)
(told *censored*: so, after 11 months or so, 180+ have been added)
(told *censored*: Chess.Net has a distinct, singular sanction policy on
cheaters: they get exposed in broadday light: no mysteries, no secrets,
no compromises, no hidden truth.)
this is great and so different from ICC
(...)
I will do that and I hope to talk more later with you,
you give me confidence that we can make on0line chess FAIRER if not fair -
enjoyed talking to you and I hope to talk with you some
more - you have some great ideas
keep up the good work - us players "out there" relying on
you - bye!
______________________________
Are you interested in playing chess tournaments on the Chess Informant Web Site?
Yes
Yes, if there are some good prizes
(Chess Informant
printed and electronic books)
Yes, if there are some money
prizes
No
We will soon start organizing the tournaments with attractive prizes as well. We are sure that with your help we will soon make another place on the Internet where the chessplayers of the world will enjoy in the "royal game".
______________________________
Interchess.com Prize tourneys
Start obtaining money with your own brain ! 
Enjoy playing in online tournaments here and winning cash prizes!
Entry fee usually is US$ 5.00.
The prize fund is distributed between the first 30% of the participants
and makes 75% of the total amount of the tournament entry fees.
Use of a chess computer is strictly prohibited and may result
in kicking the player out from the tournament.
InterChess.com's Club Rules
Use of computer programs in tournaments and simultaneous games is also prohibited.
The administrators are trained to spot these occurences and can disqualify a player for cheating.
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When people could use computers, would that not give them the impression that they would really have a shot at the grand prize?
People will figure out that when you make a perfect score on the Internet and then lose to a mediocre grandmaster in 15 moves, you are a cheater. But make no mistake about it: it's actually the mediocre grandmaster that has the biggest chance to get away with some cheating since it would not look that funny if he qualifies for the Live Event.
GM Judit Polgar in an OnlineWorldChess.com interview
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mercator says: clear now !
play 155
Issuing: DrUnclear (2054) mercator (2053) rated blitz 5 0
Rating changes: Loss: -16 Draw: +0 Win: +16
Creating: DrUnclear (2054) mercator (2053) rated blitz 5 0
mercator accepts your challenge.
{Game 357 (mercator vs. DrUnclear) Creating rated blitz match.} *
(...)
Statistics for mercator On for: 1:02 Idle: 0
mercator is currently involved in a match against DrUnclear.
rating [need] win loss draw total best
Wild 1509 359 333 27 719 1817 (08-Sep-1998)
Bughouse 1403 [6] 0 1 0 1
Bullet 1916 9961 5349 442 15752 2145 (26-May-1998)
Blitz 2053 744 392 61 1197 2168 (16-Nov-1998)
Standard 2200 [6] 59 15 3 77 2200 (12-Nov-1998)
1: My name is Jean-Louis Marchand
2: : My profession is Chess provider (Books, sets, Soft & Computers)
3: if you come to Brussels, I invite you to my shop to spend your money ! 60,rue de Belle Vue B-1000 BRUSSELS
4: Phone : 32.2.649.39.97
Address : chessbel@club.innet.be
(...)
mercator says: clear now !
(...)
Not sent -- mercator does not receive tells while playing.
{Game 357 (mercator vs. DrUnclear) DrUnclear resigns} 1-0
Blitz rating adjustment: 2054 --> 2038
mercator says: thx doc
(...)
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*censored* tells you: They should pay you!
Mercator was warned in feb. 24th...and what he did is what I noticed among other (...)
(told *censored*)
in october, he started again
(told *censored*)
I saw his (C) and then the ICC canned text for 2 days
(told *censored*)
that's just 1 reason why I left
(told *censored*)
you see, and you're the only one to know this...(...)(told *censored*)
(...) (told *censored*)
*censored* tells you: mercator did??
(...)
I nailed 1 cheater in a prize tourney on chess.net and I told them the same thing that I did here: if first prize of a toruney was an unformatted diskett, cheaters would still try to cheat and avoid detection. Even if they were interviewed by Oprah Winfrey on her show, they would still not reform (told *censored*)
most fo tehm (told *censored*)
btw, (...)(told *censored*)
*censored* tells you: I'm pulling out fistfulls of hair in frustration
(...)
Examine game
An ICS cannot dete(C)t, (C)ondemn and san(C)tion its own members while covering up their own official ICS service representative people. An ICS cannot (C)ondemn and san(C)tion the (C)razyness it detects in others while, at the same time, use these very own criticized methods, these criticized unethical manners and sanctionable means to mislead people, to fool people and to cover things up.
When ICS owners and authorities allow knowingly this to happen and grant intentionally, deliberately such compromises, they not only cheat the honest-playing members but the sanctioned cheaters as well. There cannot be 4 standards of proof, 8 sanction policies, 16 types of exceptions to policy sanctions and 32 kinds of sub-exceptions to exceptions to policy sanctions. Otherwise, it's a Salomon policy sanction being secretly implemented, all this in the back of honest-playing members who complained and complain about cheaters. Either an helpfiled policy applies to all in the same protocolized ways or it should apply to no one. That's what fairness, objectivity and impartial conditions mean and meant in all non-corrupted justice systems that existed throughout history.
Same thing with interfering with detection and policies because an owner or a head admin personally knows the cheater.
Takeback 1
Takeback 2
Takeback 3
Exceeding limit of takeback requests
Overall (C)heaters don't and can't reform. In members' and cheaters' minds, admins are perceived as organisers and behavior/atmosphere regulators. When interviewing cheaters, ICSes and admins are not close relatives, nor psychologists who can perform miracles in 20 min. in a strict text-mode relationship on the internet. ICSes and admins have very little reliable information and no access nor control over what people truly think, over their inner life processes. They have no moral influence like a friend or a meaningful relative could. No voice tone, facial expression in on-line talks; no internet lie detector, no internet crystal ball and no internet Clockwork Orange re-educating/reforming machine either. Admins are often perceived as policemen, as referees, as organisers more than friends. That is, among many other reasons, why the attempts to reform have often failed and will fail for a majority of first-time positively detected cheaters. If admins and ICSes owners believe that a simple, nice, kind, gentle on-line talk with cheaters can solve everything, then they are wrong and their own statistics overwhelmingly prove this.
ICSes owners still don't seem to understand that the power granted by chess programs is highly attractive, seductive and addictive and feeds the fantasies of power hungry and rating oriented players. (The DeepBlue vs Kasparov match in 1997 was the most observed event on all ICSes: ICSes owners still don't seem to understand why.) Cheating is addictive and involves strong subconscious drives and fantasies; sociological and environmental conditions (dry, anonymous, computerized environment where the sport competitiveness is quantitatively managed by a rating formula) are also needed for cheating to exist and to proliferate. It will take many many more hundreds of positive detection verdicts on cheaters and re(C)idivists for many ICSes to finally realize this one day.
The unbearable
The unbearable in the global functioning of many ICSes is 
not so much their botched and miserable PR management, their carelessness, their blatant deafness and their cold accounting logic but rather the illusion they create, without admitting it, in thinking that technology itself can and will manage, delete and wipe off all the undesirable effects of cheating on honest-playing members.
It's an illusion and a lie.
It's a fantasy.
It's a lie that announces the resounding failure of a rationality.
It's a lie that creates another cheating scam.
Technology per se can serve justice but it cannot do justice. It is not because more efficient technology can better detect cheating that it makes cheating more acceptable, more tolerable, less damaging in the minds of those who were abused. Better, more efficient detection doesn't justify more mercifulness, tolerance and leniency regarding cheating. Furthermore if the spirit of the game and fairplay are not restored, somehow compensated, re-established and re-affirmed in broad daylight, if hurt feelings are never ventilated, loosened, compensated, if demands and requests for fair-play are not listened, echoed and understood loud and clear once for all. Technology per se can never erase the mistrust, the deception, the persistent annoying feelings of having been had, the disgust of having been manipulated, conned and fooled. Technology cannot bring back faith nor restore personal pride and confidence in oneself.
It is this cheating scam that makes you an unwitting, powerless accessory of this nameless, faceless technology. A technology without identity, personality, soul and moral compass. You feel used, manipulated, ignored, neglected, cheap, expendable and then rejected by another technological process: you are misunderstood, poorly and disrespectfully treated at a second degree. Your anxiety, feelings, uncomfort, fear, concerns become irrelevant and are ignored while your complaints, suspicions, ideas, suggestions, etc... are sterilized and then logged, compiled, recorded and databased in the process for stats purposes.
You are a blindfolded hostage of secretive knowledge and the alibi of an obscure power where genuine passion for playing chess doesn't exist, isn't restored, still has no voice. You then become a data to possess, a target to gain, a goal to achieve inside a cheating scam which deprives and strips you of any dignified participation in the restoration of truth and into the reaffirmation of a community's sport, social and moral values.
The first technology used the encoded knowledge and sacred experience gathered by centuries of human play, of human fair-play: it was used in an unethical manner to crush your chess pride, to humiliate your limited human chess abilities inside a fun experiment of anonymity, breaking down your passion for playing chess. The 2nd technology uses your passion for playing chess inside another cheating scam where truth is pre-programmed, what you should know has been predefined, where authenticity can be preformatted with convenient canned texts, where apology notes can be anonymized, homogenized and minimal, where shame and scandals can be surgically controlled, where collective fear, global atmosphere of mistrust and uncomfort can be strategically doctored, planned and accounted for, where frustrations, powerlessness, exasperation, despair and resignation can be compensated with blinking banner ads and promotional offers.
Disconnected ICSes are the ones where management of database files, comment files and hidden, invisible abuser lists, always renewed and updated, mask the inability to invent, imagine new standards, references, other perspectives, gestures, symbols and words to give back presence, truth, pride, honour and justice to the genuine passion for playing chess.
